I posted very little on The Forums last week because I was busy going over the EDA minutes for 2006, 2007, and 2008.

Mr. Lang left the books for me to look over at the city office with no instructions. It would take numerous hours to view them. After standing at the counter for an hour one of the office help noticed that Mr. Lang had not provided a chair for me or a place to work. The counter at the city office is small and people came in and it was rather crowded. The office help graciously found me a chair and a space to sit and work. Mr. Lang appeared to have no interest in accommodating me while I looked over the books.

One couldn't help but notice the presence of Mr. Lang early in the office everyday that I was there. For the past few months when I have gone into the office to speak to Mr. Lang he was not in until later in the morning. However all last week Mr. Lang was in when I came in at 8:30 a.m.

After four days of looking over the books I informed Vicki Oakes that three meetings were missing. She said she would look into it. When I came back a few hours later two of the minutes were found and placed in the book but one of them was still missing. There was a note from Vicki Oakes that she would have to see Mr. Lang about the missing minutes.

It is interesting that the minutes for December were found but January were still missing. Is there some reason Vicki could lay her hands on the December minutes but the January were not in the same place even though they were the next meeting? Does it have anything to do with the decision that was to be made at that next meeting in January?

I discovered early in my adult life that if I had to hide something -- from someone or from everyone -- it probably wasn't a good idea to be engaged in it. I later discovered that there are really only three reasons people hide things -- they know it's WRONG, or they lack the courage to stand and face life, or they are cheating/stealing. Hiding things isn't a redeemable action, really.

I also recently went up to the city offices to examine documents with LadyHawk and was also treated rudely by the City Clerk.

As the rest of the staff was congenial and polite, I pointed out to Mr. Lang that I had a velo-bind machine and the documents we were requesting could be easily re-bound. This had been a previous concern of Mr. Lang.

He snapped back that he did not have time and was just rude. I was sitting in the middle of the clerk's office and the feeling of being awkward was at best disingenous of Mr. Lang. I verify the feelings of Ladyhawk in this regard.

Mr. Lang takes his time in producing these documents and when we showed up it was a three-ring circus.

I know that Mr. Lang does not like me, but a good public servant needs to serve the public instead of making his job easier.

When the experience was over I felt like I had disrupted Mr. Lang's busy schedule and that I was a burden. He treated me as if I had no right to the information and I felt like it was wrong for me to look at public documents.

Mr. Lang needs to make changes and his efforts to delay the production of the documents and make it difficult to examine the documents really demonstrates that we can do better in Ortonville.

If he treats me this way, How will he treat a new business interested in the area? Maybe I represent the new business looking at Ortonville. That is the nature of my business!

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. -- Eleanor Roosevelt

Intimidation is a cheap tactic. Full steam ahead!

Perhaps this individual would not be as aggravated with you and Lady Hawk if you would simply bug out and let "them" run the city the way "they" see fit. All this democracy and obeying open meeting laws and accountability ... it's so passe, isn't it?

NOT!

It's one thing not to have the time to be accountable to the public up front in actions...it's another to withhold and stall after that fact.

How do you know these are the "true" books? One can delete what one doesn't want shown. Maybe that's why it's taken so long to get them.

Were you charged for copies of what you requested?
Just curious.


nascargirl

The price for copies is still vague. In the first place Mr. Lang has to approve the copies that I want. So again I wait another week for Mr. Lang to come back and approve them. In the city office before Mr. Lang wrote up the "new" policy one could walk in to the city office and ask for the information and it would be handed over to you. Now Mr. Lang has to "approve" it.

I asked Mr. Lang how much it would cost me to get the copies and the conversation went something along these lines.

"How much will it cost to make copies?"
"The cost is listed on page 5."

"It says you can charge me .25 cents per page and $30.00 per hour. Is there going to be a $30.00 per hour charge for this?"

"We are allowed to charge a fee of $30.00 per hour."

"Are you going to charge me a $30.00 per hour fee?"
"I won't know what we are going to charge you until we have the information and see what it takes."

I can't get a straight answer out of him.

Here is the link to the page in the city policy which lists the charges. Page 5

I also happened to notice at the end of the page that little comment about how they can also charge for data that has "commercial value." I wonder how he is going to interpret that?

Over the years that my office provided copies of public records on request, we also had an option of charging for them. We never did so unless assembling them cost considerable time -- as in, more than one day of labor by one person, or more than 500 pages of copies. In those cases, we might charge only for the copies - usually only what it cost us to produce them, not the full amount allowed (4 cents, not 30 cents, AFTER the first 250 pages), and if it took more than a full day to search for and assemble them (it's the finding and organizing, not the copying itself, that takes time), we would charge about $100 a day AFTER the first full day, up to $200. I don't remember ever charging more -- they are, after all, public records, and public servants are employed in part to provide them. It is CORE work, not extra or above and beyond. The fees we charged were rarely assessed to anyone, and only when the expectation was a difficult one, like, "Find me everything you have on replacing light bulbs." In nearly every case I can recall, with maybe one or two exceptions, those charged were doing legal research and we were engaged in performing research, as well, not JUST COPYING!

Second point, we always were clear with the requestor at the outset whether they would be charged, with a caveat that we may waive it if the work was less than we anticipate. But the customer has a right to know the threshhold of what will trigger charges -- in our case, it was normally more than 250 pages, and/or more than 8 manhours of assembling and copying. That's a basic common courtesy. Uncertainty as to final cost, if any, is one thing -- intimidating or rude vagueness is another.

I agree with Zorro's post - when I have requested copies from various sources, they usually tell you up front the cost. Research is one thing, making copies is another thing.
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Wonder what they would charge per copy if you brought your own paper?
.

nascargirl

I told Mr. Lang that I could bring in my own copier to make the copies. He refused to allow me to do that. It is doubtful that he would allow me to bring any paper either.

Lady Hawk -- You are very inventive! You certainly were giving the City the opportunity to save employee's time and money.

Maybe they didn't want to figure out how much to charge you for the electricity you would use?

Good luck in your quest.


nascargirl